Paul Matthews has been the Chief Executive of Monmouthshire Council for the past 14 years. His story is not your typical rise to the top, but one that is humbly based around the place he lives, loves and works in.

To describe our conversation in one word it would be simplicity. No, the job of CEO isn't easy but it's the simple things you do as leader that goes to the heart of the impact you make.

In this episode you'll hear about...

• What impactful leadership looks and feels like

• Testing for values when recruiting

• What's shaped you as a leader

• Why become CEO

• How to take people with you into the unknown

• Finding purpose to create alignment

• CEO as chief communicator and storyteller

• The power and opportunity of social media

• Why CEOs need to evolve and change with the time

• Dealing with the politics

• Staying motivated and keeping others motivated with you

• The one bit of advice all aspiring CEOs need to hear

Resources and helpful links

• Paul Matthew’s Linkedin

• Paul Matthew’s X [aka Twitter!]

• Helen Reynold’s LinkedIn

Transcript

(E2) Paul Matthews, Chief Executive Monmouthshire Council

[00:00:00] Lee: When I finished interviewing today's guests, I went downstairs to my husband and said that I'd happily pack up the house and the business and move across the country to work for this guy. It's rare when you talk to CEOs to find that level of passion and commitment to a cause, it's something you usually reserved for company founders, not for someone that's been in the same organization for well over a decade - that in and of itself is pretty rare, particularly in the public sector where CEO turnover can be high.

[00:00:25] I'm Lee Griffith, a communication strategist, executive coach, and all around champion of leaders who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here to help you get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve through your communications so that you can deliver improved organizational performance, engagement, and reputation. Visit sundayskies.com to subscribe to my newsletter and get notified when new episodes are released every fortnight.

[00:00:49] Lee: In today's episode, I'm delighted to be talking with Paul Matthews, chief executive of Monmouthshire council.

[00:00:56] What struck me about our conversation was the simplicity. From the purpose and values, he works by to his approach of finding the right people to work with. And embracing his role as connector and chief storyteller. It was a refreshing discussion and one that absolutely proves it's possible to lead in your own way. Enjoy.

[00:01:14] So, sit-mae Paul, that is my, poor attempt of my North Walian heritage coming through. I hope I haven't massacred my greeting there.

[00:01:22] Paul: No Now that was, that was absolutely fine. Well done.

[00:01:24] Lee: It's one of very few words that I got taught by my dad growing up. So, uh,but thank you so much for joining us on the Leaders with Impact podcast. I suppose I want to start by asking you what impactful leadership looks and feels like to you.

[00:01:42] Paul: Gosh, that's a great opener actually, because there are, there, there are so many different schools of thought on that, aren't there? all with legitimacy. so, so what, what really does it for me? it's a pretty old fashioned word, but, but something I always hunt really. I'm a massive fan of wisdom.

[00:01:58] Lee: Right.

[00:01:59] Paul: you hear a lot in the current day and age about skills, technicals, pragmatism, logic, program, portfolio, all that sort of stuff, which is, which has all got its place, but you know when you sit in the company of someone and you just go, wow,

[00:02:14] Lee: Hmm.

[00:02:15] Paul: there's, there's something about you. And I'm not talking about gravitas or size or anything of that nature. The most impactful individuals that I come across have got this ability to blend lived experience with a contemporary outlook and usually an understated style. I don't go hunting heroes and stage performers. I love really authentic individuals that when I get to spend time with them, I just know they've done it. And they're likely to continue doing it, whatever it is. So it's, it's that blend of, of, of deep knowledge, authenticity and rich storytelling skills when that meshes together, I find that I tend to go yes, please. there's some learning here for me. there's something I can take from this. And hopefully that's something that I can take back home to make me better.

[00:03:14] Lee: I love that it's almost a reframe on the word wisdom because often people think that means they've got the smarts and they've got to show off how clever they are, but actually no, it's, it's about other stuff that's, that's just kind of oozes out of them to show the comfortableness.

[00:03:31] Paul: Yeah, I think so. It's got something to do with, do you know what, every now and again in the world there is a place for bravado and there is a place for iconography and all that symbology that comes from that. I'm not shy about that, I recognize that and in different situations it's absolutely necessary.

[00:03:50] but, but there's, there's something about the human spirit which really quite engages me. I, I have the honor of working with amazing colleagues. I work in a beautiful part of the world. I wouldn't choose to be anywhere else. so what is it that can make me relevant? how can I find a home, a position, legitimacy?

[00:04:14] and I, I think it is something about, learning to meet people where they're at, respecting who they are, understanding their desires, their dreams, their frustrations, all those sorts of things. So, the School of Technical Knowledge has an absolute place for me, when you run an organization of the size of mine, you absolutely need that. But there's something about introducing a degree of warmth and a degree of humanity that, that I think makes a difference. So it's, it's those things coupled with,clear narratives, absolute, clarity on purpose. There's, there's a mix there, I think, that delivers quite impressive people leading quite impressive places or organizations or sometimes just leading themselves.

[00:05:00] Lee: Hmm. Yeah. So I'm assuming from that, that's what you look for when you're recruiting into your teams, for example, but how, I suppose, are you testing for those things? How, how do you know when you're first interacting with these people that they are hitting that mark for you or not crossing the red lines that you've perhaps set?

[00:05:22] Paul: We're not unique in any way, shape or form, but we are one of those few organiz or, a smaller number of organizations these days, and we're in this bracket. We do our own senior hires. We, we don't use companies or recruitment sort of, organizations, not because I don't think they're valuable, everything's got its place in the world. But when we're making senior hires in our organization, we're, we're bringing... Hopefully we're bringing a very, very talented human being,to our, our own little family. We're bringing somebody with skills, knowledge, and experience. but we're all, well, I go back to my earlier comments, we're also looking to bring a good human being. we're looking for somebody that passes that test of, four o'clock in the morning, the snow's pouring down, we've got gritters in dangerous places. I want somebody that knows how to be calm in those situations, and motivational in those situations, but also have a degree of honesty and integrity.

[00:06:19] So, I think over the years, we, we, we are one of those organizations that have come to understand that attitude and outlook are really, really important to us. I don't really mind age profiles, in any way, shape or form. I think, I think we've hired some of the youngest chief officers in, certainly in public service in the UK today.

[00:06:40] we've hired some older ones. diversity really, really matters. But the, I suppose the holy grail for me is this thing about attitude, do you really, really want to live public service values? Can you describe, in your own words, what that really, really means? So when you're looking to assess somebody or be assessed, what, what, what's that, what's that meta framework that should really matter?

[00:07:05] Because we, we are aspiring, it would always be an aspiration, it's not fixed, but we, we are aspiring to lead a values led organization. And that means that we need to have a leadership cadre and individuals that really, really get that,

[00:07:21] Lee: Hmm.

[00:07:22] Paul: The level of technical performance is a given, we expect really, really high standards,there's no way around that, we've got drive, we've got motivation, we've got ambition for our place, but there's there's something about how we do it and who we are, and one of the conversations we are often have as a leadership team is, if we were stood on six different stages in six different countries, all at the same time, and somebody says, tell us the story of Monmouthshire, we might, we might be using different words, we might be using different delivery styles, but the goal should be that the audience is feeling who we are, they get a sense that we're living our place and our organization and it really matters to us. So, the, the, that whole thing about, there are times that you get to buy people's, intelligence, it's called their brain, but you can't buy their heart that they have to want to offer it.

[00:08:14] So I think our challenge at leadership level is to create environments, spaces, and a sense of belonging, which encourages people to bring their whole selves to us. And hopefully we're good enough to reshape ourselves to make sure that the space that those individuals need is appropriate. So that whole thing about adaptability, attitude, and taking the time, the upfront time to get to know people for who they are.

[00:08:42] Because it's, it's no good to me if I get somebody that delivers an outstanding performance, over a two or three day period. I need to know who they are so that they're comfortable with us. We're comfortable with them. and I suppose the intersect is values.

[00:08:58] Lee: So what do you do if I, if I could push you a little further to explore what you might do differently in that recruitment process, say that, that does tease out the beyond the performance aspect of, of an interview.

[00:09:12] Paul: Yeah, sure. Well, I suppose even before you get to the interview process, there's something about how you position your brand, isn't there? it's a tough recruitment market in, in the current day and age. some people can and choose to compete on sort of, salary wage level. We can't be one of those. We're not an organization of that size, but that's okay because we've got other things that we think that more than compensate for that, including, which, you might want to explore as we go on there's something that sounds very light about culture, but it's not light at all. it's, it's the work of leaders every minute of every single day. So, so, so there's the vibe of the place, the feel for the place, access to senior leaders, first name terms of, of, of the organization, the spaces or the sort of spaces that we create that people can work from.

[00:10:03] The centerpiece of our organisation is trust. if, if somebody is prepared to gift us a huge portion of their life, because that's what people do when they come to join us, we have to be prepared to gift them the space that gives them the best chance of being outstanding. It took me years to work out my job and then I sort of worked it out.

[00:10:23] It's

[00:10:24] Lee: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:10:25] Paul: really about creating conditions which enable people to be brilliant. And those conditions have to be fluid. So we invest a fair bit of time before we get to a recruitment process in making sure that people understand what they're coming to because our sort of organization won't suit everybody and that's absolutely fine. I haven't got a problem at all with that. when we interview, when we hire, we are trying to sort of ask about, the whole person, if you've got caring responsibilities, that's absolutely fine. We love you. If you've got young children, that's absolutely fine. We love you. If your washing machine breaks down more often than not equally, that's absolutely fine. We love you. If you want to be on social media doing things during the day, we don't really care about that. Because you're probably going to be thinking about work in some way, shape or form when you're at home.

[00:11:10] So that thing about trusting and making an effort to position our agenda whereby we only employ adults. We expect people to act like adults and they should be, they should expect to be treated like adults. So the, the theme that runs through all of our recruitment is effectively that Lee, really, how good are you? We can read your CV. We can, we can have a look at, what you said you've done. We can assume all that's true. Now then, do I want to spend thousands of hours with you over the coming years? And do you want to spend thousands of hours with me? If you do, and if I do, you're going to be interested in innovation, you're going to be interested in sector edge practice. You're going to be interested in creativity. You're going to have a good language around failure. You're going to enjoy risk. whilst respecting the fact that some things that just have to be done. If you want a quiet sheltered life, there are plenty of organizations that, that suit that, but it's not ours really.

[00:12:12] So, I think we're an organization which is in, which enjoys the light. We enjoy being nimble and flexible. We've got really, really high ethical standards. we set tremendously high expectations. But we genuinely are a place that careers can flourish really, really quickly. You don't have to be here for 10 years before you put your hand up.

[00:12:33] If you've got an idea on day one, that's great. you, you really can be motoring through our organization super quick. So we, we, we tend to be looking for individuals that can relax into that sort of environment and not feel threatened by it.

[00:12:47] Lee: Mm. I love that. Can I take you back to the very beginning? So I'm interested in what's shaped you, I suppose, as a person, but also as a leader. Mm.

[00:13:00] Paul: I do struggle with that bit as a leader. gah that's steep and scary stuff. My route is, I don't know what typical looks like these days, Lee, but I suspect mine isn't it. So when I left school, you wouldn't have dragged me to university,18 and out, I needed a job. I needed a wage to enable the things that 18 year olds are interested in doing to be done.

[00:13:24] so the vocational bug that I think really needs to bite you to be an outstanding public servant, it wasn't grown in me by the time I was 18. It wasn't grown through a university setting. It wasn't grown through anything that looked like a graduate sort of recruitment process, all of which, I've got total respectful. But for me, I started on the back of a mail trolley, possibly a little bit work shy in my early years. but I was working in a big old county council, which gave me access to a lot of things that I didn't appreciate at the time. So I was strolling around a big old place and perhaps not liking very many things.

[00:14:07] Not liking some of the, way that people were dealt with, not liking some of the political processes that I was observing. I didn't know I was absorbing this at the time, but I think in hindsight I was. not liking this thing about time service, not liking this thing about a natural consequence of somebody leaving is that somebody else steps up, not liking this sort of worldview that to get to the top of these sorts of organization, you have to have a particular technical skill or, or be coming through a particular technical route. I was pushing a mail trolley. but, but I was getting around over the course of four or five years quite a lot of the core sort of service areas that make up local government today, public service today. So I was seeing a lot of things.

[00:14:51] I recognized that pretty young people were, were earning more money than me quite quickly in my organization if they were qualified accountants. So, I, I did that. I didn't really fall in love with it, but, but I did it. but back in 1996, it was a big, a big moment for my career. There was local government reorganization in Wales, and that change for whatever reason, enabled me to jump several levels, very, very quickly.

[00:15:18] so at the, probably the, the rather young age of 28, I was around the third or fourth tier of a newly formed unitary authority, and my outlook on life changed, quite, quite significantly. I started to understand what was going on, I was very fortunate to be in an environment with some incredibly talented individuals, I saw what they were doing, I tried to understand how they were thinking and, through a, quite a short period, opportunities opened up for me.

[00:15:47] I didn't join local government with any aspiration to stay particularly. I'm not sure I joined with any aspiration at all. but you know, 10 years in without me realizing it, this vocational bug, that this genuine public service ethos, it got in me and I started to see a difference between those that were really, really committed to the places and the people that they were working with, for, and those that perhaps were maybe closer to taking a salary out of it and passing the time. And I was drawn towards the former. I was interested by that.

[00:16:26] having said I never went to university, I probably spent 10 or 11 years studying,all the way through this sort of period. so I built an awareness or certainly my take on public service through doing and experiencing and observing, observing practice, getting the chance to meet some courageous people, having a chief executive that was prepared to give me time and attention and opportunity at that point from a Welsh perspective, which was unusual and certainly encouraged me,to take a more global perspective on public service and to dispel any notions I had of being a myopic welshman no matter how proud and patriotic I am, I had, I had to learn that all the best practice was unlikely to be within sort of 10 miles of where I was at. And I also had to learn that best practice was probably old practice. I should be interested in next practice, and I should be interested in some international outlooks. So, that, that's probably, a snapshot of my early days, and the way that my career has developed. So, it's not been with a great plan,

[00:17:34] Lee: No.

[00:17:35] Paul: it's not been through a, a worldview that I want to be X by Y.

[00:17:40] but I've tried to travel and I continue to try to travel with an open mind. I'm interested in people. I need to be challenged. I like challenges. I'd love to see people excel and to grow. And I've got a worldview in terms of what contemporary public service looks like. And, I've, I've managed to arrive in a place that has given me just astounding levels of freedom.

[00:18:03] so, so I don't feel constrained in any way, shape or form. And when I get to talk to lots and lots of my peers around the UK, I've come to realize actually that that's quite rare.

[00:18:14] Lee: Yeah.

[00:18:16] Paul: But that, that's, that's the actuality. I don't know whether that's through luck or judgment or a combination of both of those things but I'm 14 years in now to being a local authority chief executive, the attrition rates pretty high. and I am touching wood and crossing things, but, as we talk today, I probably feel as fresh as I did 14 years ago. I'm probably more excited about the future than I did then, so I don't know whether that's because I'm hallucinating or I'm eating something that I shouldn't, but, I love a broken field, I love opportunities and they're still out there for us.

[00:18:47] So no master plan, to become chief execs. So what attracted you to take that path, I suppose, in that direction? Well, when I joined then what was a new Torvine County Borough Council, which is an organization that ultimately I became Deputy Chief Executive of before I came to Monmouthshire. it's a Valley organization. and there were just some outstanding people that came to that organization when it was in its genesis.

[00:19:19] and I started to observe how people towards the top of the organization really were having a, a pretty direct impact on not just the lives of individuals that worked, on, on payroll. But I started to have a greater appreciation of the impact of what councils really do and how they, they touch lives of people and just how many, and I like that.

[00:19:45] I think I've always had in the pit of my sort of stomach a bit of a burning rage for social justice. I think, the day that that goes out is probably the marker for my time's come to an end. So, I, I started to believe, that, that maybe I had something to offer.

[00:20:02] I started to understand, that classical imposter sort of syndrome that many people talk about. It's this fear that those a level above you have just got something, some magic that just isn't within you.

[00:20:12] Lee: yeah.

[00:20:13] Paul: I started to understand that that's not necessarily true. And I started to understand that I didn't have to model myself on the behaviors of anybody, that, that was above me on the same level of me or indeed below me.

[00:20:25] I started to believe that what really mattered, and I come back to where we got started this conversation, the people that were really impressing me were people that had found out how to, be themselves, be comfortable with themselves, be as, I don't think maverick's the right word because that implies breaking rules, but I liked people that were willing to show courage and bravery and be a little bit different.

[00:20:50] I liked people that were looking for edgy practice. and I started to, I think, form a view that, you know what, I can do this, this would be fun. we can give this a go. And what's the worst that can possibly happen? if it goes well, I'm going to have the chance to make a difference.

[00:21:08] If it doesn't, there's a bar job somewhere I can go and deliver newspapers. There'll be a different sort of future. So, I think sometimes in life, if... If you want to have a go, you just got to have a go. you've got to put yourself out there. And,one of my worries at the moment that I see within my sector, that there are perhaps not quite so many people that feel that they want to do that.

[00:21:30] I know it's a high stakes game, but gosh, the personal rewards, forget the cash, the cash is neither here or there. but the personal rewards of actually playing a small role in the life of a whole county or a metropolitan area or, or,an inner city, whatever the definition is, the opportunity to be able to make an input.

[00:21:54] Lee: Hmm.

[00:21:55] Paul: It's just, it's such an honor. It really is. So why wouldn't you want to?

[00:22:01] Lee: I'm really fascinated by what you said around, I suppose the best practice means that you are looking at the past or at the present and actually what you need to be doing is looking for the kind of the unknown or the, or the future direction of things. And I'm interested in how you were able to execute that.

[00:22:24] I suppose I'm making an assumption that not everyone feels so comfortable with the sense of the unknown and will seek comfort in best practice and what's already been done. So did you face some resistance? How did you overcome it to start to lead in the way that you wanted to?

[00:22:40] Paul: Okay, well, if I answer that from my point of arrival in Monmouthshire, it's a false, point in so many ways because you're building your outlook on yourself and your talents from the day you're born, aren't you? So it's all a build. you've just got to keep building and reinventing all of the time, really.

[00:22:58] But, when I joined Monmouthshire, I felt incredibly honoured and very, very lucky. I'd only just turned 40, so I was very young to become a Unitary Authority County Council Chief Executive. So I felt pretty emboldened by the fact that a full council appointment process was prepared to have a dabble on me when they had other candidates available to them that were already serving Chief Executives.

[00:23:22] So... I, I knew as I went through that recruitment process that if I was going to be successful, I had to find something that differentiated me. So I actually just decided to be me. I, I wasn't a candidate which said your authority is great, you're the best in Wales and it's, it's all hunky dory.

[00:23:39] I took a very different view and said that, that based on my analysis, you've got little to be proud of. you're a bit lost. in the middle of the pack seems to be where you want to be. too high towards the top, people are taking too much interest. Too far towards the bottom, people are taking an interest. So let's have a cosy life. and to, to be fair, I've got to say to the politicians then, that they sort of got it. and when, when they offered me the post, the, the cabinet called me back the following week, and I thought, well, now I'm going to get the real rules. But when they call me back, I was just amazed.

[00:24:11] They said, look, do you know what? we love the way you interviewed. you delivered us a very challenging agenda, a very challenging agenda of change, and we're not sure you, you understood everything that you were talking about, but we think you were our best bet, which is why we've chosen to go with you. So for the next three years, we'll sponsor you, we'll support you in absolutely anything that you want to do.

[00:24:33] We will give you that support and covers a cabinet. There are only two rules. You have to be accountable and you have to be prepared to give account. Different things. And I particularly like the the give account piece because it talked a storytelling narrative. So, that was a great start, the organization itself had many deficiencies, but at its heart it had outstanding officers, really fantastic people who just needed to be shown the light and given a chance to grow.

[00:25:01] So, there are a whole bunch of symbols of change that we work through, we, we, we took doors off, I worked on landings rather than in offices, I pulled chief officers, corporate directors, call them what you will, out of their little empires, and We became really, really clear that the strategic leadership team of this organization was a team. They were going to live together. They were going to be together and their primacy was going to be to each other. So that thing about alignment, and clarity, was I think really, really important to me. but very, very quickly, we started to develop a narrative about, look, do you know what? Coasting is not, not the right place. And that's not what we're here for. The general public deserve better than that. And we're going to spend 95% of our time talking about the people of Monmouthshire, the communities of Monmouthshire, the towns, the villages, the hamlets, not about what's going on within our walls. we knocked our county hall down, and actually Monmouthshire wasn't based within Monmouthsire. So we had the, the whole opportunity that presented about bringing the council home. And when we did that we rebuilt something that was much smaller, removed hundreds and hundreds of our people into our county towns and villages. We wanted to be in touch with the street. We wanted to be empathetic with our place. We, we really wanted to know what mattered and we were developing a different cadre of leadership. We were developing different learning processes. We, we were working closely with organizations such as Nesta. We were building our own entrepreneurship school.

[00:26:31] We were doing things which were trying to encourage people to think differently and more broadly and start to have a better understanding of their capability. The positive impact that they could have as individuals, but how that could quickly ramp up if they were to start to see themselves as a cadre. So we had a whole bunch of sort of symbols. We had a program of change, we went to Agile working eight, nine years ago, not hot desking, agile working. Very, very different thing. The, the DNA of our agile working was all trust. We started to talk about contribution, my role to ensure that you're clear on the contribution you make, whether you deliver that from Canada or Zimbabwe or in a more typical office space.

[00:27:19] If the contribution gets delivered, we can have a conversation about everything else. So we did try to open sort of things up. We tried to stretch people, we did start to venture a lot more out of our, our little part of the United Kingdom and traveling in numbers to other places. We were really interested in experiential learning and we learned a lot from a number of the endowments that tend to be London based.

[00:27:44] There was a narrative about a different future. I wanted to be part of a council that was exciting. I wanted to have colleagues that smiled. I wanted people not to worry about coming into work on a Monday morning. I wanted that sort of exploration for sector leading practice.

[00:27:59] We needed to understand what innovation was all about. it's, it really isn't pink and fluffy there's a discipline process to it. So we needed to learn about prototyping. We needed to learn about how you built minimal viable products. We, we needed to learn about what the good discipline around piloting was.

[00:28:16] We needed to practice the word fail. it was unusual, but I have, I've said it several times in, in our cabinet and council meetings over the years, we failed at this, we failed at that. And we've had a bunch of politicians here who have been, really bright enough to understand that there's not a company anywhere in the world that's, that's achieved 100% success in converting innovation to product, market share.

[00:28:41] So if the brightest, best resource companies in the world can't achieve a one to one ratio, what chance us? So if we were going to back a creativity, innovation, community animation program, we had to be prepared that it wasn't going to work every single time. and to have the cover from elected members with regulators at times, inspectors at times to say, do you know what, this, this might be a different approach to risk, we're not claiming to be better or worse than anybody else, but we are going to cut our own path.

[00:29:13] Lee: Mm.

[00:29:14] Paul: And we've had the sponsorship here to have a consistency around that. And consistency doesn't mean we've always done the same things. That's certainly not the case. And there's something about creating an environment, isn't there, in a culture, which gives yourself the chance to fly.

[00:29:30] It doesn't happen by luck. It doesn't happen by magic. It happens by graft and consistency. But I've been fortunate enough to have that here, which is why I've stayed.

[00:29:40] Lee: And the whole piece around how you develop and nurture a culture and, the examples you've given demonstrates it's not an overnight fix that often people think it is. It takes a lot of time and trial and error and all of those things. And it never gets to a level where that's it, our culture set, it's a constantly evolving thing. What's been your biggest lesson is you've gone through that and you've started to build the culture that you're seeking as a CEO.

[00:30:09] Paul: probably a couple of things. I often describe, Monmouthshire County Council as a small council, right? But we're still over 4, 000 people, So we we're probably close to a third of a billion in turnover if you describe in commercial terms, God knows what our balance sheet would be if you if you validate in commercial terms. So we are a big entity There's no doubt at all about that. And, we've got so many different professions, that, that make up our organization, which, which is gold dust, really, it just gives us so many different ways to tap into people's sort of talents and experiences. The challenge is aligning that.

[00:30:46] Certainly, I've worked in organizations in the past that have got more missions and more visions than you can keep track of and a big pile of documents to prove it. what I think continues to be important for us is that we don't have that. we, we don't have it, we don't have a vision and we don't have a mission.

[00:31:03] we, we took the view that our mums and dads wouldn't understand that. They would understand purpose. So our organisation has had one clear purpose statement for as long as I can remember. Doesn't matter what it is, really, but we've had one. And the necessity I think, Lee, for alignment and clarity is everything.

[00:31:22] I think it's too wishy-washy to say we're big and we're complex. That's not good enough. That's not good leadership. So clarity and alignment around a purpose that makes sense to our context has been really, really important. And people like me and others taking a disproportionate amount of time to tell the story. we'll turn over 4, 5, 6% of our colleague base in any given 12 months. That's great news, it, it usually people leave us for, for, for tremendous reasons, promotions and other things. But you aggregate that over a five year period, it's probably 30% of your workforce or colleague base that's turned over. That's 30% of people that don't know where you started five years ago. It's very, very easy to forget that. so, we never forget that. So, when people join us, the most important thing to me, probably the most important part of my job is meeting out every single person that joins our organization on an induction process.

[00:32:22] We talk to them, or I talk to them about why I'm here, what matters to me, what our purpose is, where it came from, our values, what being value led really, really means, and our very, very small set of priorities. One of the commitments that I gave to the elected members when they appointed me was that I would commit to making them international class in anything they wanted to be international class in, but they could only choose three. They couldn't have four or five. They could choose three. and that I found has been a good discipline for our organization because it enables us to really genuinely understand what opportunity cost means. What are you prepared to forego to deliver on these three things? Remind yourself as a politician, why you came into politics, what you want to tell your grandchildren about what you said, what the story you want to tell when your time has passed about what you committed to.

[00:33:19] So that thing about introducing emotion into the organization. That thing about being clear on purpose and taking the time at the most senior levels, hierarchical senior levels, to tell the story, tell the story, be the story, live the story. and, you, you can't require individuals to listen, but you can hope they will.

[00:33:43] and if our recruitment has worked and if our move towards attitude based stuff has worked. If you're turning over around 30% of your organization every five years, where's the tipping point?

[00:33:56] Lee: Mm.

[00:33:56] Paul: It's certainly not 50%, is it? It's a much lower number than that. So, this thing about it takes forever to shift a large, complex organization, I've never believed.

[00:34:08] I think you can do it quicker. And, if you, if the people that leave you, they're leaving you for great future opportunities, We do have a narrative here that the way somebody leaves is more important than the way they arrive. the holding on to relationships, holding on to friendships, almost having an unofficial alumni, which, which reinforces our, our sort of, our thirst for new knowledge and different experiences.

[00:34:36] It's just useful, really. but more than anything, if you care about it, if you want to do better, if you remember that it takes less energy to smile and to frown,if you can't do good, certainly don't do harm in any given day. I think you sort of create the, the chances that, that give you opportunities, really.

[00:34:53] Lee: Mm.

[00:34:55] Paul: I think, I think my learning is certainly as a chief executive, you can't delegate culture. You just can't. You can't require something to happen. certainly if you choose to hang around a place or, or survive in a place as long as I have, maybe it's because I haven't tried hard enough, I don't know. but if you're going to be here in any place for a period of time, you start to feel it.

[00:35:19] I, I feel the criticisms that come of the county of Monmouthshire, let alone the council. I feel very defensive and protective towards it. So that brings a whole new discipline and making sure that I don't become closed, the need to refresh and renew and, set aside some things that were, were contemporary three years ago and go again. It's always important stuff.

[00:35:42] Lee: So, one thing I've been really struck by before we met today was how visible and engaging you are on social media and your passion for your organization and your place in Wales, but also more widely the kind of conversations you get involved in through the last 40 minutes or so of us talking, the real sense of how important the role of storytelling is, for example, and being able to explain what it is that you do in a way that family and friends can understand.

[00:36:15] So you've stripped out all that corporateness and bureaucracy that often public sector organizations and private organizations can get bogged down on. So it seems that you know, you take your responsibilities as that chief communications officer really seriously. And I suppose I'm interested to know what sits behind that and how you got to that place.

[00:36:38] Paul: well, I, I, I'm not quite sure how good my, social media sort of content is, but I'll keep trying. I to work with a colleague, who's running her own business incredibly successfully. and she encouraged me to give social media a little bit of a go. I wanted, do you remember earlier I said that I was very, very keen for the organization to be more in touch with the place it served? We derive our legitimacy, a democratic mandate from the population of Monmouthshire, the citizens and I've always felt that we have a duty to, go beyond communicating and work hard at engaging the goal being participation. and that council that sits over there in a black box, no matter whether the box is black, blue or yellow. it's a difficult thing to humanize. and say my colleague, then a lady by the name of Helen Reynolds said, well, you know what, if you believe it, start doing it.

[00:37:35] put your face to it, put your name to it, and just talk as you talk to me. And, so, so I started to play with it. and I realized that, that I was learning so much. I was learning from people within my area about things they liked and they didn't like. I was accessing international networks that I wouldn't have been able to access.

[00:38:03] Without the developing sort of spheres of social media. I was accessing academics all over the world. I was really interested in their ideas. And I started to work out that, there are very few academics that won't respond positively if you take an interest in what they're doing.

[00:38:20] So you know that thing about how you build knowledge, how you stay fresh. You don't always have to be on aeroplanes. Sometimes I think you do need to go to spaces. You have to feel things and, and work out whether they can, that they can apply within your context. But my interest, I think, was humanising the council, promoting Monmouthshire as a county rather than the county council.

[00:38:48] Clearly, I'm interested in the county council, but I'm more interested in Monmouthshire, the place. I think citizens have a right to expect visibility from the chief executive of whatever the principal council is called, I've never felt comfortable with being a faceless Mandarin.

[00:39:07] I think you have to be prepared to put yourself on the line every now and again and become a place or a person that people are prepared to talk with and talk to. No, it's not always easy. there was some sparky conversations that go every now and again. but, but even in those situations, 99 times out of a hundred, you can end something with a thank you and, I'm really pleased you took the time and trouble to dot, dot, dot, and even where there are high degrees of dissonance,there's positivity in that. I get a good sense or a better sense of how a place is, it's without filters,I, you've got to, measure things every now and again, haven't you? The many world views and social media can very, very quickly become an echo chamber. so, as long as, you travel with that awareness, then that, that can be managed. but I've, I've sort of, I try hard to stay out of the negative exchanges. I'm not really interested in having a go at someone I don't know how life is for everybody from their own shoes. so I have to be interested in them. so I get a lot of information. a bit of fun, get to talk about football and sport as well as a few other things. But it all, I think, starts to paint a picture, I hope it does anyway, for, for some of our citizens. The people that work for the council also live in their street. The, the people they think they're having a go at when they say, oh, the council. Quite often, their son or their daughter's a teacher. Their next door neighbour might be a social worker. Or, they might work for the police. And if we're ever to, to break down this sort of sense of, council over there, remotes, then I think we have to meet citizens where they are, on their terms.

[00:40:56] and part of that, not all of it, but part of that is Twitter, is Facebook, is LinkedIn, is TikTok, is whatever. so, do you know what, it only takes a couple of seconds, doesn't it, to put a message out. even less really is if you're not overly worried about whether the full stops in the right place or the commas in the right place.

[00:41:19] And there's a lot of, I'd say free, I'd certainly say value for money learning that can be taken from still the millions of people out there on these in these social media spaces that are just good human beings that are looking to share stuff. So I think councils have to be part of that community.

[00:41:39] if we choose not to be then what are we? We're remote. We're tired. We're old. If, if senior council officers choose not to be, I'm not going to say they're right or wrong, but for me, I've talked a few times with this sort of, conversation about the importance of visibility, the importance of storytelling, the importance of authenticity, the importance of being a rounded human being, being open about your strengths, your weaknesses, the things that you want to learn about. And being open about the things that you're proud, about,why wouldn't you want to, to talk about this sort of stuff and take a position? so I'm not looking to occupy,any sort of, Exalted position. That's not really my interest. I'm interested in people. I like the way that people think and I don't want to become locked into the same limiting conversations with the same 10, 20, a hundred, 200 people. I'm interested in who's out there and the generations move. And if I'm going to stay contemporary, I have to know where those generations are. The things I was doing when I joined 14 years ago, which I thought were pretty edgy, pretty mainstream now, actually. so what does the new edgy look like? And I don't mean edgy for the hell of it, but change for improvement rather than change for change sake, If I'm going to remain legitimate, if I'm going to be worth my salary, then, senior leaders have to reinvent themselves. Knowledge has to shift. Outlook needs to shift. Places you go to learn need to change. Networks need to change. And some of the digital architecture that we have now that wasn't around in the 60s and 70s, Is an absolute godsend for councils if used well and appropriately.

[00:43:30] Lee: Well, if that isn't an advert for more leaders to be getting on to social media just to have conversations, I don't know what else, I don't know what else could be done really. we've touched a few times, you've mentioned the Politics and without getting into politics per se, as a local authority leader, that's longstanding, there's obviously a very political element to your role. Your influencing skills must be on point because you've, as you say, you've survived that long tenure. How have you approached that dynamic and that balance between perhaps some of the political aspects that might be playing out in your organization?

[00:44:10] Paul: One of the joys of my job actually is that sort of the political side of the organisation. Very, very clear to anybody listening, if there's more than one of you, I'm not a politician. I've got no ambition to be a politician and politics isn't what I do. but actually being politically aware, having a nuance around it and awareness is important because a significant part of my working week is, is spent on the interface between the world of politics, officialdom and community.

[00:44:39] and to do my job anywhere near well, you have to continually balance these interests. and it's, it's not always easy, but it's not always hard. I've had the joy because, I'm, I've been around the block a few times. I've, I've worked for Labour majority councils. I've worked for, coalition councils of different colours. I've worked for Conservative majority councils. So I've experienced every shade, I think, of politics. and what I've always been impressed with is, I think that Well, this is based on my experience, the overwhelming majority of people that become councillors in the places that I've been, become councillors because they want to change things and for things to improve.

[00:45:26] They care about their place, they really do, and they get a bit of a bum rap actually, in many respects. But I suppose that's understandable because they are the tier of government and governance which is closest to the street, which is what I love, we, we have to translate theories, policies and rhetoric sometimes that rain down on us from, from Westminster and Cardiff Bay in our situation, having a devolved government, we have to translate, we have to apply our own sort of policy positions, And, it's, it's quite interesting.

[00:46:00] But the key to it, Lee, is about managing the boundaries. Being really, really clear what the role of an elected, politician is. And being really, really clear in terms of the role of, of officers of a council. If you have officers trying to be politicians, that's problematic. If you have politicians trying to be officers, that's problematic.

[00:46:20] that the lines of accountability and responsibility start to fall apart. So the relationship, I think, between a political leader of a council and a chief executive is really, really important. but I've always taken the view, and it's one of the things that I'll say to all of our members, in the first week after they're elected, we, we have 46 county councillors in Monmouthshire, and I have to be a chief executive for all 46 of them. not just one or two that that ha happen to have positions of, of, I guess higher status. It's all 46. and they have to feel that they can have a trusted confidential conversation with me if it's necessary and that I won't betray that trust.

[00:47:01] So it's leadership of a slightly different sort, but I think it's only different by degree and it still comes down to building relationships. It still comes down to integrity. It comes down to valuing politicians for what they are, respecting and celebrating their democratic mandate. because I'm not sure I'll ever be brave enough to put myself up for election, and I sincerely mean that.

[00:47:29] I ask every senior officer in my organization to come with me on election night and see what it's like for a candidate to stand with their family or their loved ones and potentially be rejected

[00:47:43] Lee: Mm.

[00:47:44] Paul: by, the citizens of their space. It's quite a humbling experience. and, I did have the situation at the last election night where I had to toss a coin to determine the outcome of one of our wards.

[00:47:57] Lee: Oh my

[00:47:57] Paul: So a dead heat on an election decided by me tossing a coin. Some people might see that as great fun. I really felt for the, the individual that was unsuccessful. But, the ingredients are, I think you have to be respectful, but you have to be able to challenge.

[00:48:14] I've, I've never felt that my role is to be here and just do the bidding of that's not the role I think of, of a local authority chief executive. The role is bigger than that, I'm the policy advisor to the council, the whole council, that's in my job description,

[00:48:33] I think there is much more freedom in local government if you earn the right to exercise it. And to earn the right, there has to be a consistency in what you're doing, a respect has to be built, but you also have to be prepared at key moments in time just to have those tough conversations that nobody really wants to have.

[00:48:56] if those things are in place, then your chances of being part of a really good progressive contemporary organization are enhanced. I don't think you can ever guarantee success. But you can create conditions that make it more likely. If you don't like politics, you don't want to be in a senior role within a council because they are a part of your organization and you have to respect them and you have to learn how to work with them and, take the best and perhaps mitigate the worst maybe. it's, it's an interesting relationship, which is plural.

[00:49:42] Lee: We're getting to the end of our time. I've got a couple of quick questions if you don't mind. one is around motivation. Having been in post, as you say, for 14 years, how do you stay motivated and keep motivating others?

[00:49:59] Paul: it's a broken field. there's so much out in front of us that we haven't done yet. for all the problems that the world keeps chucking at us, that they'll be known to your listeners. we're dealing with things ranging from cost of living crises Ukraine war, to interest rates, to spectacular demand levels in terms of adult social care and homelessness numbers.

[00:50:19] All these issues, plus a hundred more, are always in the ring. So, this isn't a place to be if, if you're looking for a boring, quiet, sort of mundane life. Circumstances keep changing. goals and aspirations keep changing. The human race keeps discovering new things. I don't yet know what AI and local government will look like in five years time.

[00:50:43] Ten years ago, I didn't think that perhaps climate change, the oceans, would have made it to be as mainstream as they are now. When I was appointed to be a chief executive here, I didn't think I'd have to have the knowledge of phosphates and things of that nature that currently sit in all of the major rivers of Wales in the way that I now have to, I didn't think I'd need to understand the food system in the way that I had to, I didn't think that we would be seeing the extreme weather events that we continue to see.

[00:51:15] I didn't think that I would have had to play my, my part in leading an area through a pandemic and actually coming back to one of your earlier questions. the time spent in building trust and identity on social media paid off during a pandemic when people were looking, whether they were wise or not, but for a voice and a face, they felt that they could recognize and trust, so sensemaking.

[00:51:42] so for, for everything that I've had the opportunity to play with so far, there's so much more that I haven't, the, the organization keeps moving, that the people keep changing. We've got major, major challenges at a societal level that I don't know the solutions to yet, but I'm not ready to watch somebody else work them out.

[00:52:01] So, the, the world just keeps spinning, things keep changing. and, you have to take care of yourselves in these roles, the whole thing about sort of. physical wellness, emotional well being, preparedness. We've talked about values, we've talked about clarity, and we've talked about the importance of bringing great people to your organization.

[00:52:22] And even when they're not in your organization, sticking great people around the margins of your organization, the whole rubric keeps moving. and I think If you're not deriving energy from that, and if you feel you, the moment has come where you can't add energy to that, then it probably is time to, to step aside.

[00:52:43] but I'm, I'm probably more excited about public service now than I was when I, when I, when I took this job. there's so much more to do. The challenges are bigger. but the impact we can have is also so significant on individuals that otherwise would have, I'm certain, a lesser life. So you know, the motivation for me is still there, that burning rage of social justice that I talked to you about earlier in the pit of my stomach is still there.

[00:53:13] and I haven't yet had a day when I haven't wanted to come in. So as long as I feel free and as long as I've got a political environment, which encourages me to keep mobilizing an organization to play its part in so far as we can, I'll continue to be really, really happy to, to do my bit.

[00:53:33] Lee: So my final question what's the one piece of advice that you would give to someone that's aspiring to be a chief executive that isn't the things that they get taught in the leadership schools and the stuff that isn't taught to people, what would your advice be?

[00:53:54] Paul: I think my advice would be, it almost comes back to this overused word these days, which is authenticity, but it really is lead from a position of who you are. It has to be who you are, but be open to changing who you are. Be open to personal growth. Personal growth lives in a place where you're able to balance the highest levels of challenge with the highest levels of support.

[00:54:23] Too much challenge, stress, distress, you're lost. Too much support, go to Glastonbury,be a hippie, do, do whatever you want to do. but, but the very best people, that I think I've come across set themselves the highest standards. I'm not sure there's anybody on this planet that could hold me to account to a higher standard than I hold myself.

[00:54:46] Lee: Hmm. I

[00:54:47] Paul: Now, to achieve that. I have to be myself and I don't like people that feel as if they have to trade themselves out. So lead from a position of who you are, be open to personal growth, challenge yourself to reinvention because otherwise you'll become a very dated leader incredibly quickly and don't accept that you have to sacrifice relationships to get to the top. Because if you do, the top probably isn't worth it. Leading has to be a part of your life. It cannot be your life.

[00:55:29] Lee: think that's the perfect note to end. If people want to continue to be inspired and follow your conversations, engage, have conversations with you on, on social media, where can they find you?

[00:55:42] Paul: Twitter is, at PaulMatthew67. LinkedIn, I think it's just PaulMatthews.

[00:55:49] There's no intermediary between me and the world. Unfortunately, if you do reach out, you get me.

[00:55:53] Lee: Well Diolch yn fawr.

[00:55:55] Paul: Wowee!

[00:55:56] Lee: Thank you so much for your time. It's been a brilliant conversation.

[00:55:59] If you enjoyed this episode, please let me know on apple podcasts or on your app of choice. And drop me a line over on LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime, remember to sign up to my newsletter at www.sundayskies.Com to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances, and further insights on how to lead with impact. Until next time.